I was a member of HOGC from 2006-2013. Anyone who knew me then would know that HOGC was the most important thing in my life. I gave my all to serve in this church.
I left when I realised that the church I thought was the best church in the world was in fact directly disobeying God's Word and refused to repent.
I contacted the senior leaders when I realised the contradiction in the email thread below.
For your consideration
6 messages
Jeremy Ong <@gmail.com> 2 October 2013 at 12:12
To: Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>,
Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>
Dear Leaders,
I came across an article on desiringgod.org regarding the different roles of men & women in the church. There seems to be contradictions in the Biblical order and how HOGC, just like many churches worldwide, organize these leadership roles with respect to gender.
A sampler verse would be 1 Tim 2:12
"12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."
followed by v13-15 as the rationale for this instruction.
"13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self- control."
There are many counter-arguments brought against this doctrine (lack of education for women, ancient patriarchal society, equality between gender, cultural differences, chauvinism, etc) and so attached is the article with more comprehensive points for & against the appointment of women in leadership particularly over men, for your consideration.
I recognize the potential for misunderstanding my intentions of bringing this up. So I need to say that I do not desire a leadership position and so I am not attempting to discredit the female leadership to open a vacancy for myself. I have definitely felt offended and hurt in various ways by female leaders (intentional or unintentional on their part) but I am not seeking revenge by twisting Bible to delegitimize them. I am not seeking to destabilize HOGC and discredit the leadership and have restricted my thoughts on this matter to only close family and friends and not put out for everyone to see without first bringing this up with the leaders at different levels, first “Team Leader D”, then “Senior Leader D”.
I also recognize my past moral failures but I am not appealing for your consideration of the truth / falsehood of this doctrine based on my reputation and character but on what our Bibles say. I'm sorry for either dishonoring or being unfaithful to you in various ways irrespective of this issue. I have no doubt been in the wrong most of these times.
As this can be seen as potentially dishonoring, please recognize the great risk of misunderstanding that I run by bringing this up to you. For many years you have been my role models of the Christian faith and I don't take it lightly to bring this up, as your opinions of me matter not insignificantly. If my belief in this doctrine is shown to be wrong, and it appears that I have brought a false accusation against the church and its leadership appointments, I will be absolutely ashamed. So I have researched this as carefully as I can and am very certain of the truth regarding this doctrine. I am confident this issue is worth your consideration and will not prove to be a waste of your time and energy.
Yours sincerely, Jo
Differences between Men & Women.pdf
139K
“Senior Leader D” <@heartofgodchurch.org> 2 October 2013 at 12:34
To: Jeremy Ong <@gmail.com>
Cc: Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>,Senior Leader <@gmail.com>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>, Senior Leader
<@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader<@gmail.com>
Hi JO,
Thanks for your email. At this point of time, I think our doctrines are very different. Just like how you have embraced this doctrine, we are holding firm to ours.
I think we can agree to disagree. Personally i've been directly under female leadership my whole christian life and I've flourished under it. So purely based on my personal experience, I do not agree with the arguments presented on the website. I myself have previously researched on this topic since I grew up in a traditional church, and I've come to a different conclusion.
Would you like to meet up with “Senior Leader C” and myself this saturday night? Probably at a TCC in town...Not to discuss theology...but just to talk as friends!
While we have doctrinal differences, I think we can still be friends. Don't you agree? : )
Love,
“Senior Leader D”
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<Differences between Men & Women.pdf>
Jeremy Ong <@gmail.com> 2 October 2013 at 23:20
To: Senior Leader D <@heartofgodchurch.org>
Cc: Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader
<@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader
<@gmail.com>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>, Senior Leader
<@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>
Hi “Senior Leader D”,
sorry for taking somewhat longer to reply. I wanted to be sure I phrased my reply properly and avoid being offensive in any way since I am about to disagree. I'm afraid I can't fully agree with agreeing to disagreeing on this topic. Perhaps if it was something less doctrinally important, regarding practical matters like how much money is to be spent on this equipment versus another equipment, agreeing to disagree is to be expected since it lacks the direct scriptural reference to give any decision-maker the ability to claim absolute truth. No one can claim total certainty in the correctness of making a decision of one option over another.
However, this doctrine doesn't seem to be presented in ambiguous or metaphorical language that leaves room for various interpretations or practical application. After all, there does not seem to be any alternative way of applying "And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man " aside to indeed
refrain from appointing women to a position that requires her by the job description to teach or preach and therefore exercise authority over a man. It seems to be a rigid black/white situation where this statement is either true or false and definitely not an opinion open for any church to decide what works best in their context. I also need to raise a point that that verse (1 Tim 2:12) is the most convenient for me to copy paste and is not the sole reference on this matter in case it is mistakenly believed that it is simply an isolated verse that affirms this doctrine only barely once in the entire Bible. There are indeed multiple references to support this doctrine. However if indeed I am making a misinterpretation of the scripture references would it be ok if you explain it to me?
Also if legitimacy for a decision be based too heavily on personal experience with a certain policy that has seemed to work so far, then wouldn't it be possible that this openness to accept revision open doors for future potential negotiation of other doctrine? Could this not set a precedent that in subsequent generations decisions might be made in similar fashion? e.g. "If it works so far, it must be right." instead of "If it is written, it must be right."
Of course, this whole discussion then hinges on whether or not those verses regarding gender roles relevant for eldership and church leadership are to be applied literally or is it now open for contextualizing. If it were open for contextualizing based on different cultural backgrounds or different historical periods then this discussion is pointless and I should just refrain from troubling everyone any further.
On that note, I'm afraid I should not meet you & “Senior Leader C” this Sat not because I am harboring hostility in some vengeful form but because of the intensity of my conviction on the seriousness of this matter. I can foresee myself being unable to engage properly without discussing the elephant in the room which is exactly what I think you would rather not discuss in that setting.
Lastly if I do indeed deserve a jolly good correction or rebuke with scriptural basis I will be open to it and have to accept the humbling. Aside from that, I hope not to be considered an arrogant enemy but I really would not make decisions simply to avoid that label. I know I would definitely anger some or break the hearts of some in taking this stand. I did not take that probable outcome lightly in deciding to raise this sensitive issue. However, I need to do so as I do not see this as trivial. I believe that if one doctrine can be disregarded (assuming I am right - which I hope to be corrected if I am wrong), then there is a high risk of further distortions present or future. Perhaps this might not be viewed as sincere, but thank you to all my leaders who have in one way or another invested good in my life. I'm sorry where I have erred and I believe the lessons you've taught me will be valuable.
Yours Sincerely, Jo
Senior Leader D <@heartofgodchurch.org> 5 October 2013 at 21:15
To: Jeremy Ong <@gmail.com>
Cc: Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader
<@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader
<@gmail.com>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>, Senior Leader
<@heartofgodchurch.org>, Senior Leader <@gmail.com>
Hey JO,
Don't worry about offending any of us. We totally understand where you are coming from. In fact, this issue is not a new issue, but has been present in Christendom since the beginning. There are 2 sides to every story. I still hold firm to my doctrinal convictions. As much as you now believe in the universality of 1 Tim 2:12, I also hold on to my convictions that in the current age we live in, female pastorship/leadership/ leadership is of utmost importance. In fact I'll even go as far as to say that it is essential.
Anyhow, it's a very busy season for us in church...as you know we are in our building fund season.
Hence I really think we should meet up. No point talking til the cows come home over email Haha..no
time to write a thesis here. I already got my Pol Science degree. So have not written long papers or emails for a long time!!!!!
Why don't we talk face to face? Solely for the purposes of closure. You are probably looking for another traditional church to attend now, and we just want to bless you as you embark on this new journey.
My memories of you are of good memories. I remember how you've sowed into CD 1 since you joined. You've been very helpful and active in getting the uni peeps together.
Do seriously consider meeting up let's end on a good note.
Paul and Peter had a major disagreement over a doctrinal issue also. I'm sure you can google the bible references like how you googled and found John Pipers web.
But at the end of the day, despite their differences, the Kingdom of God continued to expand.
Love,
“Senior Leader D”
The email thread ends here. I didn't reply because I was very upset that these senior leaders whom I had genuinely respected up to that point were unwilling to lead the church according to God's Word. They were unwilling to even explain how their position can be reconciled with the relevant Scripture passage (1 Tim 2v11-15)! What kind of "Christian" leadership is this?
By the way Pastor Daniel Goh, yes, "Paul and Peter had a major disagreement over a doctrinal issue also." And how did Paul handle that? Say "I think we can agree to disagree"? Paul opposed him to his face for his condemnable hypocrisy!
Gal2: 11 But when Cephas (Peter) came to Antioch, I (Paul) opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. 12 For before certain men came from James, he was eating with the Gentiles; but when they came he drew back and separated himself, fearing the circumcision party. 13 And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, “If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?”
True Christian unity is only possible when all parties are committed to obeying the Scriptures. https://tinyurl.com/PerfectlyHolyUnity
No such thing as agree to disagree over whether we should obey or disobey a command of Jesus given through his apostles.
See http://tinyurl.com/1-Tim2-3-GodlyMenWomen for fuller explanation of 1Tim2v11-15 and critique of the scholars who distort its clear meaning.
Shorter Videos on 1Tim2v11-15:
V11-12: https://youtu.be/oeaoO6yghCA
V14-15: https://youtu.be/QJMSEBQRPBU
If a woman repents from her transgression of teaching men the Scripture or exercising authority over men, she will be saved from her transgression and from the wrath to come. But if she persists in insubordination towards men and refuses to repent, she will not be saved from her transgression but is instead storing up wrath for herself in the day of wrath and revelation of God's righteous judgment. (1Tim2v14-15 cf Rom2v5)
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